Filmer 3D for Hitfilm owmycgi.net : Design and VFX.

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  • Cool @tddavis ,

    For sure check out the new Sky model in the Shader editor. :)

  • Triem23Triem23 Moderator

    "02. Visible triangles in the shading, the faces and shading will appear warped where two triangles meet to create a quad. "

    Yeah, but I get that sometimes when I let Hitfilm handle the tris. That's exactly why I started doing it manually. *shrug*

  • Mike, I'd have to really see what you're doing to help you. My method avoids all the problems which you're able to see and are occurring.

    I've been exporting 3D objects over to Hitfilm for years using the same technique without fail, works with "everything" and any type of animation, and also on a complicated mesh with many materials, with either one texture slot, or a mesh with many texture slots. Preserves all smoothing info and hard edges.

    Let me know if you want to Skype? It'd be a whole lot simpler because I'd be able to see what you're doing.

  • Quick test, low res and low samples.

    https://youtu.be/yYFin0zT-5M

  • I might be wrong but I think the issue is not so much the modeling in filmer/blender but when @Triem23 exports it over to Hitfilm is where the issue happens being hitfilm triangulates faces automatically from the geometry given. So for example long rectangular faces get split once to create two tri's on said rectangular face. Whereas adding an edge loop in Filmer would double that triangle count for each edgeloop added in said rectangular face. 

    I personally haven't really had any issues but I see what he is talking about being hitfilm triangulates the mesh automatically. Not sure if that would really affect any uv maping texture wise.

    And btw that sky system looks pretty awesome man, makes doing leaving earth from the surface to space 100% easier. 

  • Ah okay, I understand now. :) Thanks @FlyingBanana78

    The thing about triangulating just before export is what is messing him up? That was my thinking at least. I never do it because it always yields shading errors. I never use any method that creates errors on import to Hitfilm. Triangulation before export is one of the things that I avoid without missing a thought. :) Yes you can change the smoothing angle on import to Hitfilm but that is just a quick fix on an obviously incorrectly built for Hitfilm 3D object. Best practice is to avoid all methods that cause even the slightest error so I do, I avoid them all. That's just logical experience talking. :)

    It gets worse if you haven't completed applying any or all modifiers because they change the way your mesh will look in Hitfilm on export. It has the same effect on a mesh like, when you cut a PB & J Sammy diagonally down the middle into two triangles. After you cut the Sammy into two triangles, you'll see that the Sammy is no longer flat and that is because of the triangulation. Not sure if that makes sense. :)

    Yes the 3D object needs to be triangulated to export correctly into Hitfilm but it should be done on export and not before to avoid any and all issues. Using my exporters to do the triangulation "on export" works 100% of the time for me. Modifiers absolutely need to be applied manually before export so double check for that.

    I tried Mikes method of manually triangulating a beveled rectangle before export earlier today and it yields the errors that he mentioned every time. Doing it my way simply works every time with no problems.

    My exporters bake all relevant data, like correct shading angle, hard edges, all material slots and textures, and animation groups, which is basically everything that needs to be exported to Hitfilm.

    I'm telling you, instead of hunting for fixes that will take you in all the wrong directions and ending in massive frustration, a quick Skype session with Mike so that I can "SEE" what he is doing will help narrow down the problem in no time flat and he'll be up and running. Even a quick screen cap on Mikes part will do. I just need to be able to see what he is doing first.

    Mike @Triem23 , is there a link to the modelling "Tardis" tutorial that you are following? Maybe I could check that out so I can have a clue as to what you're doing? I've got 20 million years experience dude, trust me... all I need is a fast look and we'll figure it out real quick like. :)

    Let me know dude, you can keep looking for answers in other tutorials, or spend who knows how much time reading through Blender manual after Blender manual for however long it takes you to become frustrated...         or you can spend 5 minutes with me in a Skype chat or something and we'll solve it as fast as Thanos can snap his fingers. :) Lets get it done dude, your Tardis is pimp and I want to see it in a Hitfilm scene. :)

  • Nodes are funny, that' s why I prefer comping in Hitfilm, Cycles is too slow for Compositing, Fast to render but comping is too slow for my taste.

  • True, as I mentioned I haven't had any issues with the tri geometry that Hitfilm auto does to the mesh that was quad topology in blender and filmer. This is all I was mentioning is that Hitfilm auto does the quads to tris as seen here on the shipping container you can see the tris that were quads in Filmer. But again I haven't had any issues. So yeah think a skype would get to the bottom of it. And yes I have brought many of rendered blends into Hitfilm for compositing as blender is extremely slow and I honestly can't stand doing comps node based. Way too much spaghetti for me. LOL

    https://i.imgur.com/PIBWggR.jpg

  • Hey @FlyingBanana78

    Did you export that out of Blender or Filmer? Just wondering because my exporters do triangulate the mesh but they first bake the original smooth shading and hard edges if any, of quads onto the exported triangles. 

    Oh but wait, I'd heard many years ago that Hitfilm "only Displays" quads as tris. I didn't know that Hitfilm actually does a quad to tris conversion? Is that for real? If so... oh my god I did not know that. Oh my god wow! That explains certain things to a point. Wow I really did not know that... wow! I see now, maybe how triangulation could be confusing, now that I know that tidbit, thanks for that @FlyingBanana78 . :)

    That's crazy, I've tried exporting a quads only mesh to Hitfilm several times before but that also breeds many shading errors, so I coded the mesh data baking stuff into my exporters because it seems to do the trick with .obj files. The fbx stuff needs more coding work but I put it off because for me personally and concerning my workflow, the obj format does everything I tell it too while having a simple cube object in fbx format, lags Hitfilm when I'm forced to change the smoothing angle. Yeah, normal maps and changing the smoothing angle on an fbx mesh causes severe lag in Hitfilm for me. It has happened on three of my machines.

    I really like you door model. Cycles to bake the textures?

    Topology is nice, clean and beautiful, just like a brush stroke. I love seein' me a clean wireframe.

    Oh yeah man, nodes are cool and all but damned if stuff doesn't get over complicated for no reason. I'm for comping in Hitfilm x infinity. All the way dude. 

    There are by the way, several new Compositor and Shader nodes in Filmer. The Comp nodes are easy to understand and help with either comping stuff together and or exporting multiple single file render passes for comping in Hitfilm. So you could render a single beauty pass or export render passes, or both.

  • Triem23Triem23 Moderator

    Frank,

    Looks like you moved the location of the python scripts? I'm no longer seeing the "Hitfilm Snippets" folder. I guess I could just install everything in the "addons_contrib" folder? Logically it looks like you've broken things into the "hitfilm_compositor," "hitfilm_mesh_data," and "hitfilm_shaders" folders. Anything else I NEED from "addons_contrib?"

    I seem to be not expressing a few things clearly. Let's see if I can fix that now.

    When I say "manually" converting quads to tris I'm not going in a creating new edge by hand. I've just been using the Quads to Tris feature in Blender. It's odd, because with this TARDIS (and it's on revision 8 now), about half have gone into Hitfilm with visible errors if I let HITFILM create the tris, and about half look better if I do the tris in Filmer first.

    "Logical experience." Heh. I like you added "experience" there, because that's what I'm trying to rebuild. Again, I've let my 3D skills atrophy, so, while I hold a lot of theory an planning in my brain, it's the experience with the day-to-day that ultimately counts. Made a few mistakes along the way - like in my last post about subdivide before bevel, so you don't subdivide a bevel and create thousands of wasted polys - but also learning "best practices."

    More later, but it's 4am, I've been up all night and haven't eaten. I AM seeing how the FILMER exporter handles the TARDIS as FBX.

  • I've gotcha Mike, I understand. Here is where you find and install all of the Hitfilm addons for Filmer 2.90.2

    This new Filmer will only use Hitfilm addons from it's own folder directory so that you don't need to go hunting for them. That way you can have as many Blenders or Filmers on your machine without their addons messing each other up.

    Yeah adding a sub-D modifier to your Tardis is way overkill. Sure sometimes you need it but not in your case, your Tardis looks really good as is so you don't need extra geo.

    I understand when you or I say manual triangulation in Blender. :)

    Not sure how to say this and not have it come out, sounding offensive to anyone so I'll just say it.

    Triangulation does have a place in certain situations when you would want to do it but not as a step right before export to Hitfilm because it causes one problem after another, and another, and another  that you have to solve... as you now know. :(

    If you end up having to change the smoothing angle for your mesh on import to Hitfilm... then you need to go back and repair that shading because all the hard work that you did with marking hard edges is gone and didn't get exported so that you now have shading errors in Hitfilm. It's like you marked your hard edges for nothing because they don't get exported.

    The fbx till I code some more for it, will not export smoothing information and hard edges, so fbx always requires that we change the smoothing angle on import so that it looks passable. 

    I'm telling you dude, don't get so frustrated that you pull your hair out... five minutes... give me five minutes in  Skype chat and you'll be back in the race. :)

  • Triem23Triem23 Moderator

    Another clarification - Blender has two tools for Sub-D, the modifer and the right-click "destructive" option. In this case I'm either manually selecting certain faces then doing a right-click subdivide, or manually subdividing with additional loop cuts. 

    I'd already found the add ons, and having them be directly in the folder they're now in is a better move. You will need to update your initial setup video as it's now wrong (enough to lead people astray).

    Maybe we'll figure out a Skype time soonish. Your hours seem as odd as mine. 

  • Cool. :)

    Yeah, I'm in the process of updating videos, just haven't been 100% since I hurt my foot and my little stint with food allergies is making me go a little slow. Hard to focus a straight thought when in pain.

    I was an alcoholic/drunk/bing drinker for about a decade so I have insomnia like crazy. Any time is good for me so let me know. :)

  • Again I may be wrong and I can't find any info if Hitfilm auto creates actual tri geometry or if it is just a viewer that displays it as tris. But this is just a cube that has one edgeloop run down the middle and no triangulation done in blender 2.83 for the export. Just did export as obj and hit enter. Maybe one of the staff can explain the way hitfilm handles 3d mesh geometry a little more. It may be like a lot of the game engines out there that auto calculate quads to tris but again I am not sure or even positive.

    https://i.imgur.com/vXvc95D.jpg

    And yes the container was baked but only at a low sample value though for testing. 

  • Triem23Triem23 Moderator

    @FlyingBanana78 I'm pretty certain Hitfilm automatically converts quads to tris. The game engine comparison is probably apt since Hitfilm is OpenGL based and what is OpenGl used for...? Games!

    I'll tag in @TheBenNorris but I'll guess he'll have to kick it to one of the devs that have been around longer. 

  • Ah cool @FlyingBanana78 ,

    I've tried it just like that many years ago before it was explained to me about what Hitfilm does with quad based objects.

    Simon Jones and I worked on a very similar problem many years ago with the help of some of the Hitfilm DEVs, and that is how I came up with my exporting solution although till last year when I learned how to actually code, I had to manually write the mesh data info into my obj and mtl files which was a pain in the buttox. I've never had to look back or had any problems ever since.

    One of us should probably make a list of does and don'ts because there sure is a whole bunch of contradictory information out there. Maybe better to call it "best practices or something"?

  • @Triem23 oops I'm a little late, but I'm pretty sure (from my limited experience at uni) that OpenGL renders everything in tris. As such, it's fair to assume all squares are converted to tris.

  • Hey, thanks @BenNorris .

    Wrote a new Lensing effects addon for Filmer, it does some crazy stuff. Mixed with and pimped out with Hitfilm Lens Flares and other effects. 

    This reminds me of a movie I saw a long time ago called the Last Dragon... I've got my technique down... I call it ego killer...

    https://youtu.be/jjYIeLos7iM

  • Stargazer54Stargazer54 Moderator

    That's awesome, Frank!

  • Pure awesomeness there man. Nice, very nice!

  • Hey thanks very, very much @FlyingBanana78 . :)

  • New Filmer updated with latest Blender 2.90.02 code and all the goodies.

    Added a new Hitfilm post Lensing Effects addon which works in the Filmer Compositor Workspace Layout, and is based off the Hitfilm Auto light flares effect. 

    Video demo testing the new lensing addon and compositing it with Hitfilm Auto Flares and a bunch of other Hitfilm effects.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jjYIeLos7iM

    https://www.owmycgi.net/product-page/filmer-v2-90-2-7-2-20

  • @spydurhank Very stoked to get home and download this this evening!  Thanks for email and the video.

  • Thanks and you're very welcome Terry @tddavis ,

    I really, really, really like the new Lensing addon. I came up with some new compositing tricks while writing and testing the addon which has some crazy math going on. 

    Really, I actually wrote the new Lensing addon to be used with another experimental feature named "Light Groups" which separates any light source into a render pass. 

    It is awesome but I still need to refactor the "Light Group" code so that it works with my Hacked Cycles render engine, that way we don't loose any render speed. Gonna be tough because lights cause a ton of noise. 

  • Stargazer54Stargazer54 Moderator

    @spydurhank Frank I keep watching that clip on loop and it is truly amazing!  Not just the Lensing effect but the camera movement the ships - everything is so tight.

    I didn't see it the first time but one of those things that make it "realistic" is the shake on the panels of the hero ship at around 5 sec.  Wowza!  That really gives it life and the feel of flight.  Was that an intended animation element or is that a result of the Lensing effect?  I assume you intentionally animated that.

  • You're right @Stargazer54 , twas deliberate. And thanks very much. :)

    The Solar panels are rotating back and forth in the local X and Z axis. :)

  • @spydurhank

    So, um, well, you know, I mean, uh....

    What is Filmer?

    Who let's these darn newbies in here anyway????   Moderator!!

     

     

  • Triem23Triem23 Moderator

    @cluelessnube

    "Filmer"is Frank's custom build of Blender with a lot of tools to simplify transferring data between Blender and Hitfilm. For example, say you've built an animation. Frank has a custom exporter so one click bakes everything into a Hitfilm Composite Shot. He's got a bunch of custom shaders, speed enhancements and other goodies, which can be yours for $36. 

    Don't slam on the hyper nerds. Those are the guys who build the tools to make things simple. Using your web example, the webmaster "went away" because hyper nerds coded a bunch of plug and play libraries, which let anyone build the same boring website with the same damn layout, so every web page is identical. 

    See, the "super easy" tool also kills creativity. Sure the kids use snapchat filters instead of learning photo editors. Which means every 10th photo looks the same.

    Case in point, for a couple of years my video work dropped off because a bunch of other videographers undercut my price...but those guys use nothing but presets and templates - you know, the easy accessable stuff. Now that work is coming back to me because the clients realized those others couldn't actually do anything different or custom, and if they wanted anything with a unique style they needed someone actually skilled.

  • @Triem23 - thanks for the intro to Filmer, appreciate it.   Is there further info and order form etc somewhere?   Didn't see it in a web search.  

    FYI, I'm not slamming hyper nerds, though it's possible that less than fully skillful writing on my part could give that impression.   You know, as a hyper nerd myself (in other arenas) my social skills are not always, um, award winning.   

    I'm attempting to put hyper nerdology  in to a larger context.

    User friendly tools don't kill creativity, they make powers available to a wider audience, many of whom turn out not to be that talented by nature.    And so, yea, the mass production of dreck does become an issue,  as it is on the web, agreed.    

    I think if we examine viewer's relationship with special effects and such with a clear eye we'll see that while special effects are exciting at first, they soon lose their punch and are then taken to be an obvious given by the audience.   And then, we either have a story that connects with their emotions, or we don't. 

    I'll withdraw here and start a new thread on this so that nerd talk may continue here uninterrupted.

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