I Hate 3D

edited May 31 in Everything Else

Every so often I try to experiment with 3D models.  I know why too, I'm an idiot.  What a waste of time...

This isn't a complaint about Hitfilm, because the same thing always happens in every 3D app.  You download a model from somewhere and try to upload it in to some app for manipulation.  97% of the time it doesn't work.    The FBX or OBJ file and materials never connect.  Or they connect and the materials are totally screwed up.  So I'm supposed to edit every material.  I open up the material box and it contains 18,234 options, all in a tiny, tiny, tiny interface full of bewildering sliders, buttons, do-dads and other mysterious mechanical machinery.  What 3D model is worth all this work?  None that I've ever seen.

The good folks who designed the 3D realm must be even denser than me, because so long as their industry is this immature their market is going to remain a tiny, tiny, tiny, tiny fragment of what it could be.  Is it so much to ask that there be reliable data transfer standards?   All I want to do is move a 3D model from point A to point B and not have it completely fall apart in the transfer almost every single time.

I have a solution though.  Yep, I know what will fix it.  Hysterical ranting to the rescue!!!

 

Comments

  • edited May 31

    Ah now...not a waste of time. 3D modeling is rocking (with good models).

    Although I can say that most free models are hard to work with...not all mind you...but a large percentage of them.

    As for standards....no such thing. Everybody thinks their idea is better than everyone elses. I have worked in the fiber optic industry for over 30 years...you think there would be standard across the entire industry.....but no......our's is better and you have to buy our equipment and software to complete the job.  Why? Because we set the standards. Um, so the BELCOR standard over 50 years old isn't the standard anymore....BS.

    Keep up the hard work @PhilTanny. Once you figure what's going to work you'll have a blast creating your VFX shots.

    **You should move this to Everything Else...not really a Pro support issue. 

  • Yes, sorry, should be in Everything Else, my bad.  Never trust a hysterical ranter!

    Right, no standards.  Which means the market is a small fraction of what it could be. That's dumb.

    Or, at least there could be a single file format which one could count on, and use the others at one's own risk.  Isn't FBX supposed to be a standard?  And OBJ?  And yet 95 times out of 100 the textures don't work until they're fiddled with.  Is nobody capable of creating a single 3D file format which works reliably?  Hey FXhome, maybe it's you that will solve this problem?  

    Also, we really need a rant filter apparently!

  • Triem23Triem23 Moderator

    A few general observations. 

    One) Free models are often problematic. A high percentage are made by students or beginners who aren't very good yet. 

    Two) different modelers all have different proprietary formats and, often, proprietary shaders. Many models online were created in format X converted to format Y. This can cause issues. For example is the Z axis height or depth? I won't go in depth here, but there are a ton of possible issues. Only one would be Blender procedural textures, which absolutely don't transfer to anything else. 

    A third issue is aging formats. OBJ goes back to the 1980's and it's official format doesn't allow for certain current features. Programs have hacked other things into OBJ over the decades, but a hack is... Problematic. 

    Fourth, ABC and FBX are exception formats. Someone tried to create a generic interchange format everything can read, but... Going from a native format to interchange still has the same issues.

    3D ain't easy, and it's time consuming, but it's rewarding in the end. 

  • Students and beginners can create image and movie files and share them widely and easily.  That's a mature industry, thus with a huge market.  3D is stuck in immaturity, and here's why.  We put up with it.

  • edited May 31

    I dunno....I wouldn't call a $1500.00 priced top quality model from a professional artist immature.

    https://www.turbosquid.com/3d-models/iss-international-space-station-3d-model-1145549

    I figured out 3D models awhile ago.....buy top quality if that's what you need/want. Free (made by aspiring modelers) is a crap shoot and even some paid ones are too. Some good some not so good. Unless you can make your own like spydurhank,  Alladin4d and others here and elsewhere you are forced to use OP's models. Search out models with a price tag attached. You'd be surprised at the quality of workmanship coming from these professionals.

    Happy modeling.

  • Stargazer54Stargazer54 Moderator

    Sorry dude.  The hard stuff is still hard.   And 3D is very hard.  It takes years to become proficient at Maya, Lightwave, Blender, etc.  And unless you have a background "in" 3D, then all the things you have to deal with such as UV textures, environment maps, 3D space, modeling, keyframing, rendering (the list goes on) are going to be hard for new users coming in fresh from the HF angle.   That's just the nature of the beast.

    There is no free lunch.  As Mike stated, free models are given away because they are usually crappy to begin with.  You will wind up having to clean them up to use them - which means you have to have a 3D package to work on them.  HF is not built for that.

    Everything takes practice and time.   My advice is to start on something simple.  Make a 3D ball and move it across the screen (keyframing).   Then  work on adding lights.  Then work on adding an environment map.   Then work on adding a texture, and so on.   3D is a long journey that begins with simple steps.   If you expect to create ILM quality effects right out of the box by snapping your fingers you will be disappointed.  No such product exists.

  • Hi Stargazer, 

    Well, there is a much simpler solution.   Simply ignore 3D until the industry gets it's act together. As example...

    Would you create a website if it required learning Unix and half the time the Unix commands didn't work?  Do you want a website that bad?  Probably not.

    But if you could use Wordpress and just copy and paste your text in to a form and hit submit, then having a website becomes worth it.

    3D will be extremely cool someday.  But today, imho, it's just not worth jumping through all the primitive hoops.

  • @GrayMotion, the INDUSTRY is immature.  The file you're referring to costs so much because it's ridiculously hard to make.  Example:  In 1995 people would pay me $75 just to upload a few images to a server, because it was simply too hard for them to do, at that time.   That's a primitive industry.  A mature industry is when your dog can upload the images for you. 

  •  Your opinion.

    For the record..I don't want my dog uploading images for me....my luck all I'd end up with is a pile-o-smelly-crap.

  • No Graymotion, not my opinion, this thread is a revelation directly from God, who approved this message.  :-)

  • edited May 31

    I don't hate 3D.
    But I'm also struggling with the same things you described, Phil.
    So I would get the "Import 3D models" Addon likely when it was clear that this would work out.
    Tried some models to import with the Pro-Trial - but it did not come off (obviously those models were some of the mentioned not ideally created ones) . So I gave up - still having faith to get some grip on Blender sometimes.
    But of course will try again.

    For now I'm happy to import stills from 3D-Models though - not the same, of course of course.
    The combination with Crazy Talk works anyhow.

    I accept that 3D-Modelling is an art for itself. So I come from another territory, which is fine.

  • Hi Thomekk, I think perhaps we discussed this in another thread about Mixamo and Sketchfab?  Those two services are attempting to make a limited version of 3D point and click simple.   I did find them both to be modestly useful, and quite interesting as a vision of where we may be going.  But...

    I can't seem to get in to Mixamo anymore as the upload model feature seems to have a broken "Next" button.  Doesn't work in any browser I've got.

    All the stuff I'm complaining about will get sorted out in time.  Those who like unnecessary complications can dive in now, and those that don't can just wait.   I do agree that 3D is likely the future.

  • Triem23Triem23 Moderator

    Some apples, BVQ comparisons in this thread. 

    Things like web hosting and file uploads are less complex than 3D modelling. File uploads are moving data. That's it. It's a simple code. Even most file formats are relatively static (JPEG hasn't changed since the 80s).

    3D modelling is one of those areas of constant refinement. Polygon modelling with triangles goes back to the 1960s. Poly modelling in quads to around the 80s, and n-gons the late 90s. New methods are always being developed for modelling and rendering, so there's constant change and innovation in the industry. One recent example - with the most recent 2.8 release Blender dropped its original renderer entirely. 25 year old feature, gone. Why? It didn't support newer improvements to renders. Moving forward, this is great, but might cause issues with old models saved with settings lovingly optimized for the original renderer.

    As far as quality standards, they do exist. But models that don't meet standards can be sold.

    Turbosquid quality standards are here: https://www.turbosquid.com/3d-modeling/checkmate/checkmate-specifications/checkmate-pro-specification/

    @GrayMotion spent $1500 on his ISS? I guarantee it's Checkmate Pro. That means it meets standards linked above. 

    Now, most properly built models are built twice. The first build it rough as the artist tweaks and pushes the polys. The second build is "retopologizing." Retopology/retopo is literally building a new copy over the original with a specific eye to clean geometry and cleaning up issues in the original geometry. This takes a lot of time. There's a certain amount of "you get what you pay for."

    The issue isn't Hitfilm, it's bad modelling. 

  • Triem writes, "Things like web hosting and file uploads are less complex than 3D modelling."

    But this has not always been so.  25 years ago creating a website was a highly technical matter, which meant few could participate.  Over time that industry has matured, and now creating a website is easy, which means almost anybody can participate.  That is, the market for websites has exploded.

    Here's why 3D is currently so complicated.  Those working in the field have not yet figured out how to make it user friendly.  When they do, they will experience an explosion of the 3D market. 

    We nerds tend to think that complicated things are "advanced".  The opposite is closer to the truth.  Complicated things are a symptom of an immature industry.

    What's going to happen over time is that eventually all the complications involved in creating video and 3D will be gradually erased, and then being a nerd won't matter at all.  All that will matter then is one's creative vision. 

    As example, the fact that I can code my own forum software from scratch doesn't matter to you at all.  All that you care about is whether I can create something in this simple forum post text entry box that you find somehow useful. 

    So, a gentle warning to all those investing thousands of hours in mastering the technology.  All that you've accomplished will in time become obsolete.  All that will remain is whether you have an interesting vision to share.

     

     

  • @PhilTanny,

    I "kind of" enjoy watching you use one of your true talents which is Serpentine thought and prose.     This whole thread was about you expressing your frustration with your use of 3D models.   This was followed by a basket of assumptions and apple to oranges comparisons. 

    There are a number of Hitfilm users that are on this forum that have successfully used 3D models in their work.   These folks have generously offered their expertise and help to many including me.

    You can start by explaining "exactly" what you want to accomplish.    saying it's hard,  is only saying that possibly, you had  unrealistic expectations.

    There is a reason that most discussions surrounding 3D art, is the fact that the word Art is almost always used.  

    Knowledge about Lighting, and composition and how something looks in real life is mandatory. 

    You are correct, home use of very powerful 3D software is young.  It grows as availability to powerful hardware grows. 

    Apparently there are still people that trivialize the complexity of creating a static photo realistic 3D composition .   Adding motion exponentially adds to the complexity. 

  • Hi BobDiMarzio,

    It's true, I'm so incredibly intelligent that I had to look up the definition of "serpentine".  I'm happy to learn that I am a snake, because I was admittedly privately concerned that I might instead just be a member of that incredibly rare honking blowhard species. Phew, that was a close one!

    Yes, I don't doubt at all that some, or many, Hitfilm users have mastered 3D.  It's surely possible, no argument there. 

    But then, it's also true that back in 1989 some power nerds mastered the Unix skills needed at that time to put a website on the Internuts.  But none of us today would consider such a necessity to be "advanced".  We would instead see the need for Unix skills to be a property of an immature field still struggling to emerge in to the real world.

    Ok, fair enough, here's specifically what I want to accomplish.  I want cure myself of this urge I get every 6 months or so to try 3D.  So should I return a few months from now to ask a question about 3D, you guys can yell...

    "Whoa, whoa, whoa! Weren't you that snake who said he HATES 3D??" 

    Knowing that this humiliating public embarrassment awaits me may help keep me on the 2D straight and narrow.

    But, wait...   

    I LOVE ranting about 3D! 

    YES, YES, YES, I FINALLY FOUND A USE FOR 3D!!  :-)

     

  • @PhilTanny

    If you would like to digress, I will mention that super nerds wrote Lotus123 which was released in 1983 entirely in Assembly Language.  I still remember using all the command line, commands.  Then Windows 3.1 reached significant acceptance in 1990 and a person was a Luddite if they did not embrace the mouse interface.  Fast forward to now where if a person does not utilize  the hotkeys one is not a power user.   Go figure.   What does this have to do with using 3D models in Hitfilm?   Absolutely nothing.

  • Please note that the complaint I belched did not blame Hitfilm, and this was stated clearly at the very start of the thread. 

    I do plead guilty to wrongly placing this rant thread in the Hitfilm Pro section, and am grateful the mods have repaired my error.

  •  @Triem23 - I'm still able to type so obviously I didn't buy that ISS....wife would have chopped off me fingers ....  the one I purchased was 200 from KuhnIndustries industries.

    Look forward to seeing your progress @PhilTanny

  •  @GrayMotion, if you care to share perhaps sometime you could show us what you did with the 3D model you purchased?  Or not, as you prefer.

    As to my progress, so far I'm being dramatically successful at reaching my goal of losing all interest in 3D. In fact, I haven't written about it in literally seconds.

  • @PhilTanny ,
    tried Mixamo again and via the chrome browser & it worked here. But dunnow how it goes on the mac.
    It's still a broken island I guess.

    Now I have posted  a first  Hitfilm (music)video with the usage of MakeHuman/CrazyTalk - one has to be the first I guess
    poor 3D, but what the heck ...

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