Impatient Procrastinators Visual Effects.

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  • edited December 2017

    Glad you guys like the free stuff. This small sample is actually part of a much larger X-wing pack... something like 24 models. I have a lot more Sci Fi stuff almost ready to go and a bunch of military aircraft that's gonna put everything out there to shame.

    One question for all you guys is, if this sounds good and you're interested. I can do a Level of detail - Retopology for each HERO model that I build.

    Pros- You get 4 models instead of one so more bang for your buck.   You'll get the actual .obj and .fbx models for use in other 3D apps, and not just the .hfcs project and textures. Textures will be in .exr which scale way better from high to lower resolutions.

    Cons- It only takes 3 to 4-ish extra days to retopo and uv unwrap the LOD models.

    Let me know here, what you do with the models. I'd like to see your individual approach when you put them in a scene. I have my ways just as all you guys have yours... I'd just like to see what you do. :)

    Really, I'm thinking PBR contest.

    Use the free stuff that I gave you and make it look photo real, or as much as you're able too. The winner would get the entire E6 X-wing pack for free. I'll talk to Courtney about that as soon as she wakes up... or maybe after she has a cup or two of Coffee. Who wouldn't want more FREE stuff!?

    Here's why you wouldn't want free stuff from me. Because my stuff will just work out of the box in Hitfilm Pro. Because it is as easy as Drag and Drop. Because everything will be pre-rigged for animation making it easier to parent effects to your models. Because everything will be painted in super high quality 16K .exr Because I'm a nice guy and you like me. :)

  • None of those are reasons we WOULDN'T want free stuff... 

    Contests are always good. And I'd get to enter one for a change. I've got Pro, I was a Lifetime backer on the initial ActionVFX Kickstarter so I get all of their stuff forever, etc... 

  • @spydurhank "I can do a Level of detail - Retopology for each HERO model that I build."

    I think this would be good. I have a 4Ghz i7 4770k and a GTX 1080 and the 4k red+white model cannot play real time. Just one model, not moving. I don't think it is the textures, but rather the extreme geometry. 1.7M surfaces FBX, 1.5M OBJ.

    The red+gray model plays much better. Only ~600K surfaces, but the texture is a bit plain.

    With the big model. Interesting is the GPU utilization is only about 20% but the playhead is jumping. The CPU has a big jump over an X-wing I currently have. It is a low geometry model. This may be some driver processing of all that geometry transfering from the system to GPU for actual render. It's only 20% CPU but about twice my current model. OpenGL is known for issues it has with its inability to use threads in the driver. It does not matter the whys, but this model does have performance costs on my machine with a quick test.

    I for one would want something with less detail. Geometry and texture. Unless you have a beauty closeup you don't need it and why pay the performance cost.

    The detail in the red+white 4k model is just crazy. You could maybe almost stand a human near it. It really does not fall apart as you move in close. Obviously the geometry is massive but it also has separate texture files for hull and wing.

    For reference here is a quick shot of the X-wing I bought from TurboSquid. $69 if I remember correctly. Less than 15,000 surfaces. 1, 2K texture (hull+wing), normal, specular. Glass has a separate texture. 1 point light, ambient light, ambient occlusion for screenshot.

    The low geometry is obvious in a close static shot. When it is flying by you can't really see it. It does not remotely compare in static beauty to your X-red+white wing. It does edit fast.

     

    I did wonder some things about the model setup. The red+white model has the model origin point scaled to 1% and the world transform of the model layer containing the model at 10,000%.  Why are these two inverting each other.

  • @NormanPCN

    I'm using the 3D model origin points scale in meters because I imported the model scaled to one meter. 1% is one meter. You can always un-parent the ship from the 3D point rescale the ship and point back to the normal 100% then re-parent them.

    I have a gtx970 and x2 xeon e5 2670 at 2Ghz and I get no lag unless I'm running three or four programs at the same time or during screencap. Your graphics card is way better than mine and I think your processor is too, so it does matter why you get lag on your system being that I think it is pretty fast, most likely faster than mine. 

    As far as the geometry goes... it is what it is. Quads get turned into tris and blah blah blah to make the model render pretty.

  • @Andersen01498 assuming that code plays nicely with whatever forum software is in use. 

  • @spydurhank Wow bud! Thanks for all the hard work. 1,2,4 and 8k all look great. Very surprised about the 8k texture one. Thought for sure it would bog the machine down but it's just as responsive as the all the others.

    Great job and thank you!

  • @GrayMotion Did you raise the global text limit to 8K from the default 4K when trying the 8K texture model?

  • edited December 2017

    Uh, hehe...there is the "bog" I was expecting.  HF kindly downside the texture to 4096 as it was suppose to. Thanks for the rock to the side of the head @NormanPCN. I needed it :-) 

  • @GrayMotion @NormanPCN ah, but now we know Hitfilm's texture scaling is low-overhead. So, set Max Tex size to 2k or 4k for editing and animation then go to 8k for rendering. 

  •  Hitfilm is optimized for 4K textures not 8K. You're supposed to display the 8K textures at 4K in your Project Settings. Let HitFilm downscale the 8k textures to 4K. It's like getting extra anti aliasing for free on top of the fact that the textures were painted at 16K and down scaled to 8k. The down scaling  works just as good with 16K textures except they look better.

    I'm exited because it sounds like you guys are trying to render a video clip out of HitFilm at 8K. If you are? Sounds like you need to optimize your Project Settings and Scene. Maybe go down to 4K?    

  • Dunno, Frank, I suspect Gray is rendering to 1080 but using 8k textures to get REALLY close to the model. I've not downloaded yet, but, say I'm doing the classic "comp myself into the cockpit" shot. I might want the camera scraping the paint of the hull before the fighter banks off. There's where the full 8k texture come in handy.

    On the other hand, I'd keep your huge model for hero shots, but go to something a lot lower res for things in the distance. Zach is working on a dogfight shot with really small fighters around a Star Destroyer taking up most of the frame and your model's detail is mass overkill. The Turbosquid model Norman shows above would be more than enough detail. 

    So, a retopo for a low-detail model would come in handy. Great for particle sims and behavioral fleet actions. 

  • You're funny, the entire download is a bunch of models, all with different LOD. Some info in the video. :)

  • "Hitfilm is optimized for 4K textures not 8K."

    Boy, No BS, there. I loaded the 8K model, set my project texture size to 8192 and Hitfilm (my machine) goes unresponsive for 5+ seconds. That is how long it takes to do one, yes 1, frame. No chance at play. 8K texture with 4K texture limit or a straight 4K texture play at close to 30fps at 1080 or even UHD.

    My GPU is a 1080 with 8GB of ram. Only 4GB of GPU memory is being allocated/committed. There is a butload of CPU work going on here as well. Single threaded it appears to be (1 Hitfilm, 1 GL driver, so 2 but appear to be interconnected). A bottleneck.

    @Spydurhank Any reason the red+gray composite shot setups are 4096x2048? Kinda weird resolution. 2:1 ratio. The high quality red+white 4K model has a standard 1920x1080 comp. Easy enough to change, but just asking.

    Any reason the red+white mode uses the phong lighting model?

    The diffuse colors are really dark. Like 25-32. With even a 100% light right next to the model and no falloff the model is still super dark. Too dark IMO. My only guess is that you wanted a big light ratio between specular and diffuse. I've added some ambient, but gotta be easy on this cause it flattens the model.

    @Triem23 "I might want the camera scraping the paint of the hull before the fighter banks off."

    The 4K red+white model is freaking hella awesome. Even though "only" 4K there are separate texture maps for the hull and wing so there is a lot of detail for individual texture elements getting mapped.

    I don't know if this is a "great" visual example but good enough for a few seconds setup. Nothing soft about the textures up real close and of course the geometry with 1.5-1.7M surfaces is there as well. Not depending on a normal map for a pseudo 3D look. It is 3D!

  • @NormanPCN 4096x2048? Render large and downscale for extra anti-aliasing for promo shots that I was working on.

    The free Autodesk fbx converter does that to the materials on import to HitFilm Pro. It darkens the diffuse and specular values. So I pretty much left them at default settings. But really, you shouldn't use whatever material settings you find on these models as I didn't set those up "at all" but only tinkered a bit and I definitely didn't set them up to be lit realistically. Some are using Phong some are using Cook Torrence. You need to set up the materials for your specific scene. It will be easy though, the Spec map will see to that.  Oh and nice render. That will look awesome with an environment map. :)

    In a new project, try unlinking all the model textures and see how the geometry performs for you. I'm exited to hear how it performs on a much better video card than my own. :)

     

  • Quick video of me importing the same X-wing into HitFilm Pro, except this one has 16K textures.

    So my machine didn't explode, I had nothing running except HFP and OBS.

    Freakin' sweet! :)

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tpSz-o8Y9Dw&feature=youtu.be

     

  • "That will look awesome with an environment map."

    There actually was a starfield environment map. But that is white stars on transparency. The Hitfilm export frame feature does not give us a way to export a frame without transparency. Exactly what any given app does with transparency is undefined. Hitfilm gives black. Obviously other stuff can give white. White stars on white transparency is, well, white.

    The starfield was done with atomic particles. When atomic disperses particles we get transparency. If I used fractal noise for a starfield then the black would actually be a real/true black.

  • Looks really good. :)

  • Triem23Triem23 Moderator
    edited December 2017

    FWIW on my laptop, Win 7 Pro, i7 6700HQ, 64GB RAM, Nvidia 980m 8GB...

    Well, so far, just the 4k variants are pretty unusable. Right now I have the OBJ version loaded up (I've tried with both FBX and OBJ), and, just for fun, I went into a light and changed it's falloff to NONE (which will speed things up). 45 seconds before HITFILM lets me do anything else.

    Now, Laptops ain't as powerful as dekstops. A 980m is roughly equivalent to a desktop 770, but, wow...

    53 seconds to open the model properties to look at textures.

    The FBX version is snappier--only 5-10 second delay after doing, well, anything. BUT, I've also dropped Max Tex Res to 1024

  • Heh... I had the same problem on windows 7 a few weeks ago. The problem went away immediately on install of Windows 10 Pro.

    In windows 7, it takes a different workflow to get the models to import into HitFilm properly and run smoothly. You need the actual .obj/.mtl and .fbx models for it to work correctly which I didn't Upload. I would have to upload the 3D models or you would need to make the switch to Windows 10... which we all now know, support for windows 7 is no more.

    All of my models were saved as .hfcs in the latest version of HFP on windows 10 pro.

    Windows 10 Pro. 2x xeon e52670. 64gigs ram. 3x gtx 970 

  • Sigh. Ok, I suppose I can no longer put off the dreaded upgrade. 

    I have to use Windows 10 at work and it always ticks me off. Add in Windows 10 forcing updates (which often screw up your machine--look at all the issues on this forum when Creator's Update rolled back everyone's GPU drivers), and the fact that Microsoft said "screw December 2020, we're ending support now," and I've been understandably reluctant to upgrade. I was hoping to wait for my next computer, but...

  • Ooh that blows. :(

    Doing manual windows updates is working at the moment for me, well it has worked so far at least. 

    Oh and I just remembered. I still had HFP2017 installed after windows 10.

    I was going between 2017 and Pro, importing the models not the .hfcs.

    In 2017, my hack was to import the textures manually. meaning the models were exported from Blender with materials but no textures.

    In Pro I didn't have to do anything manual. The models just worked when exported from Blender with Materials and Textures.

    In 2017 the same model would no longer open and would definitely hang.    

  • Well... Until Dec 31 Microsoft is offering free Win 10 upgrades for users who use "assistive technologies." But, at no point do they ask you to prove you use them. So... at least if I do it now it's still free...

    So my library and work drives are currently backing up to an HDD as well as all the USER stuff on my D:.

    Once that's done... Upgrade away.

    Shame, because it took fricking forever to strip out all the Windows 7 stuff that's superfluous and to get Windows configured so that certain things went to D: and not C:. I guess that means it'll be yet ANOTHER week before I get back to Hitfilm tutorials. meh.

    But, at least I ain't gonna shell out $200.

  • 16K version. 3D model textures, shadows, reflections, displayed at 4K. 16bit float linear color. One light, One environment map, One HitFilm Pro, One Frank.  Spec is a bit much but hey... 16K. :) 

  • Impressive! 

  • "In windows 7, it takes a different workflow to get the models to import into HitFilm properly and run smoothly."

    That's weird. I might be something else. Something side related which is not uncommon. The OS really has no clue what a 3D model is or anything related. Or a Hitfilm project file for that matter. Besides doing the disk reading and memory allocating the OS is not really doing anything. The OS is just watching from the grandstands.

    "16K version. 3D model textures, shadows, reflections, displayed at 4K."

    Do you mean that the Hitfilm texture limit is set to 4K. If so then I really do not see any benefit in anything larger than 4K. Just scale the texture to 4K outside of Hitfilm and use that. This what Hitfilm does with textures larger than the max limit setting. It scales on import and thereafter uses the scaled texture.

  • @NormanPCN I get the feeling that you're trying to pick my brain. 

    "That's weird. I might be something else. Something side related which is not uncommon. The OS really has no clue what a 3D model is or anything related. Or a Hitfilm project file for that matter. Besides doing the disk reading and memory allocating the OS is not really doing anything. The OS is just watching from the grandstands"

    Logical but what I said is exactly what is happening, as weird as it sounds to you. OS does matter, HFP does not support windows 7 so even assuming that HFP or my models in HFP will work as expected in Windows 7 is not a good idea. :) 

    "Do you mean that the Hitfilm texture limit is set to 4K"

    Yes. :)

    "If so then I really do not see any benefit in anything larger than 4K."

    I Do, I see possibilities. :) 

    "Just scale the texture to 4K outside of Hitfilm and use that.

    That's what I did with the LOD Textures. :)

     

    "This what Hitfilm does with textures larger than the max limit setting. It scales on import and thereafter uses the scaled texture."

    I'm aware of this, and that's exactly why I let HFP do the scaling and not an image editing app.

    In HFP, 16K will look better scaled to 4K than 8K scaled to 4k, or a 16K scaled to 4K in an image editing app. You get this crazy anti aliasing for free if you let HFP scale down the 16K texture. So it's better if scaling is done in HFP and not an image editing app.

    I normally just use the 8K textures but today I used the 16K textures because damn!.. it is very cool that you can do this outside a dedicated 3D app.   

     

     

  • @spydurhank You asked about render performance on my machine. Here is a sample video showing playback performance in Hitfilm with the red+white model, OBJ version 1.5M surfaces. 

    It shows just one model not being able to play real time in a 1080p30 project. Everything on, except blur. No environment map on the model layer. A couple of lights with no range limit.

    4Ghz i7 4770k, 16GB ram, GTX 1080 8GB.

    It can be hard from the model movement to see stutter so just watch the timeline playhead for jumpiness. I sized the timeline  to full width to accentuate the feedback. I then did a ram preview for comparison. The ram preview build time was sped up 500%.

    If you want to see utilizations the taskbar bugs show that. The blue one is CPU, red GPU, orange is GPU encoder/decoder, purple GPU clockrate. The GPU utilization can be a little bit of a red herring since there is heavy texturing going on and the GPU utilization trackers are primarily recording shader utilization. The GPU encode/decode is from the Nvidia screen capture software running and of course some CPU for the screen recorder as well.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LlJEwKmM7zM

    The same thing happens with no textures on the model. The performance bottleneck seems to be on the CPU. There is a lot more CPU activity with this compared to my other X-wing model (15K surfaces).  The texturing does not to remotely be a performance problem at <= 4K Hitfilm texture limits. But then, I do have a GTX 1080.

    There appears to be some processing/transform on geometry that occurs every frame (redone), and this is done on CPU.

    I see bottlenecks similar with one other model with 1M+ textures. The Celestial pack has an Earth model with 3D geometry. Done that way for Hitfilm pre normal map support. The same texture(s) on a smooth sphere perform dramatically better. As fine as Hitfilm is capable of.  Looking very closely, it seems 3D model stuff is never as "perfect" as a media stream.

    The perf on my machine is realistically fine. Even for an impatient POS like me. Given the very heavy nature of these models, the question is about others.

    @Triem23 The biggest limit to a scaping the hull shot with the red+white model is the Hitfilm shadows as shown in this example.  The sawtooth edges. To the right of the engines and longitudinal along the front hull. You want a 4K shadow map and we will need to bump up the shadow diffusion to blur things out.

    4096 shadow map with no diffusion.

    4096 shadow map with 33% diffusion.

  • @NormanPCN Nothing plays real time there buddy. Good one. :)

    Not sure what is doing that to your shadows though and I'm not gonna take a guess either. I also see triangles on the surface of your render that I don't have in mine. Settings must be off somewhere because I don't have these odd behaviors. 

    What os are you on? The .hfcs stuff will not work correctly if at all, on Windows 7.

    Feel like I'm repeating myself. :)

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